Hello and welcome to episode 5 of the High Yield Tourism podcast. I’m Gary Bowerman. On today’s show, I’ll be discussing cultural stewardship and community engagement in tourism in two fast-changing African destinations with my two expert guests. So, let’s get started. This is High Yield Tourism. tourism.

Hello, and thanks for listening in. Today’s special edition of the podcast is adapted from a panel session I moderated at the 2024 Halal in Travel Global Summit, hosted by CrescentRating in Singapore. I was joined by two learned guests, Hafsa H. Mbamba, CEO of the Zanzibar Commission for Tourism, and Enver Duminy, CEO of Cape Town Tourism, for a debate entitled Cultural Stewardship, Ensuring Local Communities Flourish in in tourism. I hope you enjoy the conversation. It’s a pleasure today to be joined by two stellar guests, Hafsa H. Mbamba, CEO of the Zanzibar Commission for Tourism. Hi, Hafsa.

Hello, Gary.

And Enver Dumini, CEO of Cape Town Tourism. Hey, Enver, how are you doing?

Hi, Gary. Hi, Hafsa. Absolute pleasure to be here. Cape Town Tourism. how are, you Enver, doing?

So today’s discussion brings together Southern and Eastern Africa and Southeast Asia, so there’s going to be plenty to talk about. So let’s crack on and let’s begin with this subject of cultural stewardship. Hafsa, what does it mean? And can you share a recent example of where cultural stewardship in tourism has significantly benefited a local community?

Well, if I were to define it, I would say there’s a sense of responsibility that either the authority and the community take to protect and manage sustainably the culture and heritage of a community or destination. and manage sustainably the culture and heritage of a community or destination.

So obviously Zanzibar being a very, a destination, a country with a very rich culture and heritage, we take this as a very important topic and especially in promoting the destination as well. So just to give an example, on the eastern part of the main island of Ngulia in a village called Jambiani. So community has come together and created their own tour operating company with tour guides. And this is mostly just to be able to have more of a sense of control of the narrative of the area, as well as how the destination is promoted. So obviously, with the influx of tourism, the narrative can easily shift, as well as influences from outside. So Jambiani is actually a very good example of how the community, as well as with the support of investors in that area, have come together to showcase the culture of that particular fishing village.

That’s interesting. And Hafsa, in terms of context and time, was this something that was happening before the pandemic? Has the context changed post-pandemic or is this just a sort of timeline of the way tourism has been changing?

This has been taking place before the pandemic, but on a national level, a government level, we’ve taken specific strategies to actually promote more of the heritage and culture of Zanzibar. Not that we didn’t do it before, but now there’s a special agenda to promote the culture and heritage of Zanzibar. So these sort of work as case studies for us on how it’s worked in some parts of the destination and how we can replicate similar examples elsewhere.

Fascinating. There’s plenty more for us to delve into over the next few minutes. Let me throw that over to you, Enver, in terms of cultural stewardship. What does it really mean? And is there an example that you can give us or you can share with us about how this is benefiting communities in the Cape Town area?

Yeah, Gary, I mean, for the way I see cultural stewardship, it’s like being the designated driver for culture and heritage within your destination. It’s about, like Hafsa said, it’s about being responsible and being that designated driver. You have the responsibility of guiding tourists as well as community and at times government in understanding the culture, its preservation, but more importantly, its importance to the authenticity of a destination. So, of course, it’s about, you know, tourism is about having a reflection of the diversity of our destination. But what you were finding is that over time, property prices started becoming expensive, which meant that with a lot of tourists willing to spend their dollars and euros on property. And because it’s a poor community, they were selling their houses. And over time, what you would find is gentrification. That meant that the culture and heritage that was kind of part of the fabric and the fibers of that community was being lost. And what was critically important for us, because it’s a tourist attraction, what we needed to do is to work closely with the community, work closely with, of course, economic development, which is in the government, and then with the tourism sector in finding how do we balance and preserve heritage? How do we make sure that the people that live in the area that have been there for decades and centuries are protected from the high inflationary costs that places pressure on them to maintain their homes and to live there. How do we find a balance around making sure that the cultural preservation is embraced by everybody that comes and lives there so that you find a balance? It’s an ongoing process. And I think this is one of the challenges around as much as there’s a good intention around tourism and travel and can become an economic driver for jobs etc it’s about making sure that we don’t lose the importance of the heritage and the culture that makes so many destinations unique that the globalization doesn’t erode that so it’s a fine balance but something that you have to work on continuously and at times also religiously.

And so following up with the similar question that I asked to Hafsa there in terms of, you mentioned this is an ongoing process. What kind of timeline are we talking about when that sort of mindset has shifted in the way that you’re approaching these things?

So for us, it’s been an ongoing thing since probably around 2010, just after our World Cup, where we started seeing an influx of tourists wanting to, of course, stay in the central business district because it’s close to all the amenities, great facilities, etc. and euros and a very poor exchange rate in South Africa. And with over we started seeing some of the cultural assets being depleted, that, time, but the lack of a cultural awareness and sensitivity around what actually made the Boer Cup the Boer Cup. What we also saw was that the community themselves were also protesting against development and everything else coming into the area. And I think those things spurned us as Cape Town tourism, who were merely looking at saying, well, we need to get as many tourists in there so that the local community can benefit. It actually had the opposite effect. And therefore, we were forced to engage with the community in a constructive manner, in a respectful and responsible manner. And it’s about finding the balance between growing tourism and responsible And it’s manner. about finding the balance between growing tourism responsibly, deserving a culture for a future inheritance of heritage for the next generation, and then at the same addressing the need time, for economic balance within the community.

We’ve set quite a good platform there. We’ve talked about the historic timeline and how the mindsets and the operational sort of structures of marketing have changed and how we’re looking more at culture and heritage now, as you said, Emver, into different generations into the future. Let’s bring it up to modern day Haftar. I’ll start with you. We are now in a post-pandemic era. We’re moving into an era where, particularly in Asia, for example, we didn’t really have any tourism at all for two, three years if you’re in China. But we’re now seeing numbers coming back, we’re seeing that demand really, really going back somewhere to where we were before the pandemic. What is this doing in terms of how we market and promote culture in tourism in future? Has it changed the game? Or is it taking us back? Or is it taking us forward? Where are we now in terms of how we’re looking at cultural stewardship compared to where we were before the pandemic?

As for Zanzibar, we have definitely changed the strategy. And so traditionally, our tourism has grown through, I’d say, sort of like charter flights, whereby, you know, it’s just the volumes that are coming to Zanzibar. And it’s not necessarily the culture and heritage that’s driving the mass to Zanzibar. So one of the things that we changed in the last two years is basically to re-strategize and see how can we promote Zanzibar, but at the same time, obviously preserve our culture and heritage and get sort of visitors who are actually interested in the culture and heritage. Yes, we’re a beach destination, but we have a lot more to offer than just beach. So what we did, for example, last year, first of all, we initiated a campaign called Green Zanzibar, which has five commitment areas, a campaign called Green Ozanziwa, which has five commitment one areas, of them being preserving the culture and heritage of Ozanziwa. So this is guidelines for existing businesses, tourism businesses, to take upon. And they have these sort of minimum targets to reach in the way they operate their businesses. But ideally, in the long term, what we’re going to do is to introduce a green label scheme based off this declaration. So in essence, what we’re saying is, yes, we’re welcoming tourists, but it’s equally important to also preserve our culture and heritage. Because what we’ve seen, especially during the pandemic, because we were one of the very few countries in the world that did not have a lockdown so a lot of people you know moved to Zanzibar basically and which boomed obviously the real estate business as well which directly impacts tourism as well so there’s certain areas that were not as developed as they were pre-pandemic, who are in these areas are in the verge of being overdeveloped to a point where villages, local villages are moving from their sort of areas, and these are sleeping fishing villages, are moving further up to sell land for development. So as a government, obviously, we had to take measures into controlling, not controlling, but making sure the development happens sustainably as well. So I concur what Enver was saying as well. We’re all doing it in the name of tourism, but it has to be balanced. And we need to ensure that our community, all our communities are going to benefit in the long run and not just the short term.

That’s an intriguing context that you mentioned there about the COVID era. As you’ve changed the strategy and you’re sort of rethinking how you promote the destination, how easy or how difficult was it to get buy-in across the value chain? How did local operators and local businesses respond to what you were trying to do?

So this is ongoing, the journey, we’re still on that transformative journey. And one of them being that we identified priority areas on where we want to develop tourism and not just mass tourism and also identifying which target markets that we want as well as which type of visitors we’d like to attract. So the key here is obviously to get them interested to come to Zanzibar based on the offerings that we have and not just being a beach destination, as well as getting them, you know, offering more experiences. Some, you know, being cultural and heritage experiences and getting them to stay longer based on that. So this is why we, for example, targeted more of the Asian market because traditionally our market has been predominantly European. Looking into other markets will obviously help us diversify our market as well as reduce the seasonality. But at the same time, we’re bringing on board, ideally, visitors who are also interested in the culture and history and not just beach as it’s been traditionally.

Fascinating insights. Thanks for that, Hafsa. I’ll bring you in, Enver, on the same question. Post-pandemic, has that changed the game in the way that you’re thinking about culture and heritage and tourism? And has it changed the game for your visitors?

I think to some degree, yes and no. And the reason is that already in what was it, the year 2000, Cape Town understood the need for not just growing tourism at any cost. And that’s where we actually founded what they call the Cape Town Declaration for Responsible Tourism. So 25 years ago, there was already the initiative of saying is that this is not about volume, but it’s about value and sustainability. And what we also defined in that charter of responsible tourism was that this is not just about the environment, which I think a lot of people focus on in destination sustainability, and then they just keep thinking green. What we realize is that the uniqueness of our destination as still a young, growing democracy that still has lots of challenges from an apartheid legacy was the fact that we needed to make sure that the community also benefits from this. And unfortunately, in the kind of pre-pandemic, a lot of the hotels, the experiences were very European or American. So you would have these brands coming in. And of course, that comes with a certain way of operating, a certain culture. And over time, if that continued, that would have an impact on the community that surrounds a hotel or any other form of accommodation provider. And under the auspices of Responsible Tourism, what we said is that we need to find a balance this is a process that will continue in perpetuity because the world changes so quickly demographics change if you see how youth are responding to things as different social media and its impact that it’s having on culture as well opportunity and also a continuous program that we will continue to run as Cape Town Tourism in finding that balance. What we have done when we looked at it is we realized that tourism, even in Cape Town, we were like crowd herders. We wanted lots of people and we moved the crowds around from one location to the next on buses, etc. And under the Responsible Tourism Charter, we realized that we actually need to be a responsible and respectful concierge for our destination. In other words, it’s about understanding exactly what the needs are of the visitor and also of the community and trying to match that so that, you know, as much as we get to share the rest of our authenticity of our destination, share the rest of our authenticity of our destination. It’s about also making sure that the economy is also growing by making sure that the tip jar of the economy is also filled. So it’s a continuous cycle that we go through and there’s lots of mistakes we still continue to make, but it’s something that we believe is at the core of who we are as an organization and as a destination.

Yeah, curious. I love that phrase, respectful concierge. That’s a great phrase. And in the context of Cape Town, Emver, slightly different to Zanzibar in that Cape Town is a city, how do you work with other destinations across South Africa to kind of change this whole approach?

It’s a very good question. And I love also what Hafsa said about kind of how we are perceived as a destination through kind of old marketing of just sun and sea. And yet, you know, there’s a rich culture and heritage, diversity, inclusivity, but also a rawness about a destination that’s in transition, that people kind of love to immerse themselves in. And how we’ve managed to work with other destinations was to be less arrogant as a destination. It’s a difficult thing when you are always in the top 10 lists around the world and at times that arrogance or confidence becomes arrogance. And we realized that actually in order for a destination to be successful, an airplane has to be filled in both directions for a route to work. So it’s not just about what we get in as a destination. It’s also who we share that with because that flight has to be filled in both directions, not just with the traveler coming from a source mark, but also South Africans and Cape Townians going elsewhere. And for us, that is critically important how we position ourselves. So we’ve worked with Johannesburg and Durban in prior years around what makes each of our cities unique, how do we create the velocity of travel between our destinations so that we’re not competing with the same market share, but in fact, we grow the pie bigger. Recently as well, we’ve collaborated with Vic Falls as part of World Bank program, where we shared our operating model, how we do stuff with the kind of re-emergence of Victoria Falls. And we created a campaign called Wonder to Wonder from the Vic Falls to Table Mountain. And that’s, again, how we stimulate that. We’re in conversations now even with Namibia. So for us, it’s not just about us, even though we are globally recognized as an international destination. I still have a partnership with New York and Berlin right now, and we are busy working on the very first of its kind international global campaign between three competing cities. And it’s the stories of freedom that we have in common as Berlin, New York, and Cape Town that allows us to also start addressing and creating hope in the world that is under immense pressure of where diversity is not acknowledged and applauded. Culture and heritage is secondary. And for us, this is critically important in also who we partner with as destinations. It’s not just about the brand or the economic value, but it’s about what’s at the core of who we are and who we strive to be as cities that allows us to be able to partner with others in a way that’s meaningful, but also in life-changing.

It’s fascinating to listen to you both. I love these fresh perspectives and these fresh challenges. They’re slightly different from some of the things that I hear here in Southeast Asia, but you’ve both referenced social media. Now, we know that technology and social media have played both a positive and a negative role, I would guess, in tourism in recent years. Often when we read media articles about over-tourism, you know, it often gets blamed on social media and, you know, this urge to go to the same sites as everybody else wants to go, take the same pictures as everybody else wants to take and, you know, share them and encourage more people to do exactly the same sites as everybody else wants to go, take the same pictures as everybody else wants to take and share them and encourage more people to do exactly the same. But I want to ask you, in terms of how technology and social media can be used in a positive way, are there ways that we can actually use it to promote culture and heritage and stewardship and to kind of promote a more responsible way of travel? Or is that genie out of the box now?

No, I mean, I think that’s the right way to do it. Considering that this is where most travelers get their travel information, social media is the right platform to start off with. So just to give you a very good example, recently we actually had a local content creator who did some very basic information that travelers need prior arrival. This was just before the month of Ramadan. And that had a lot of hits because obviously we can’t assume everybody who comes to Zanzibar would understand that one, we’re predominantly Muslim because in the past, it wasn’t necessarily promoted as a predominantly Muslim country. It’s just a beach destination and people just come. So again, social media can also help, one, have a much more control of the narrative of the destination, two, engage the local communities as well. So this particular local content creator uses just day-to-day examples of how people can come and enjoy the destination. And a lot of times it’s based around culture and heritage of Zanzibar. And a lot of times it’s based around culture and heritage of Zanzibar.

So, yeah, so social media can definitely play a huge role in preserving the culture and heritage, as well as bringing benefits to the local community. So he’s also done a recent one, for example, where he promoted a local organic farm where they do these farm to table types of activities. You know, a lot of people know it through word of mouth, but through his followers, he was able to promote this locally based product and help them promote them internationally.

Thanks for that, Hafsa. Great insights. I love the phrase there about control of the narrative and how you can drive that, Hafsa. Great insights. I love the phrase there about control of the narrative and how you can drive that through content creation. Enver, let me throw that over to you. What are your thoughts on this subject?

For me, it’s a double-edged sword, always. I think to Hafsa’s positioning around being the content creator, the storyteller, being able to narrate respectful storytelling of a destination, preserving that. The challenge is that how people use social media, where I call it Insta-Twitterism, it’s more about the selfie than the site. And that for me is the biggest concern. And all the education in the world is not going to help Twitterists because it’s behavioral. It’s something that kind of is ingrained in them from the minute they get their first phone right through. And that’s the challenge we face. And before Cape Town Tourism would always be kind of the custodian of the content about the destination in the early days of social media. We spend a lot of money and time and resources on trying to control the narrative, to tell the narrative. And we realized is that user-generated content outperforms us 10,000 to one. For each post we do, there’s 10,000 already going out at the same time and 24-7. So you can’t keep up with it. And to try and control or even manage that is exceptionally difficult. The one thing that we remain conscious of is saying, how do we work with communities? Because sometimes it’s the communities that have access to TikTok, to all the other social medias, how do they represent themselves and the stories? So it’s about kind of finding that out. Even though it’s difficult, we continue to still push that positive messaging, working with communities, with influencers, because the challenge for us remains that is how do we move them from being kind of selfie-selfish into actually immersing them into learning about something that’s different? Because that was the reason why they came here was about, oh, I’m going to go there because it’s different. But what they all feel like is that they need to share this with the rest of the world immediately. And some of the things that was even proposed by some communities was even having what they call digital detox, where you don’t even take your phone into a community. It’s about respect for the community, coming in and really immersing yourself. And that’s what we’re beginning to see is that sometimes it’s about forcing certain things to happen or you’re not going to be invited back into that community. It’s like having an unwelcome guest that you invite into your house. You’re supposed to be respectful and they do everything but be respectful. And at some stage, you’re going to have to draw a line. And the sooner we do that in, of course, a respectful manner, but also in a firm manner, this is going to be something that we continue to do. So like I said, it’s a double-edged sword, something that we continue to try and manage as best as possible. But we can’t control everything. And it’s about how we work with those influencers, with communities, with everybody that has a cell phone somewhere in communicating how to be respectful of the environment you’re in. And it’s more about the moment and appreciating it than the selfie.

Yeah, it’s big challenges. I agree. I accept that. I want to talk to you a little bit now about seasonality. Now, we’ve talked about social media and technology and the driving of travelers into destinations, into certain parts of a destination, that kind of thing. What about seasonality? How does that impact those challenges as well in terms of managing the cultural stewardship? You must have periods where you have more visitors than others, at times when there’s less. Can you give us a little indication about how many visitors you get each year and those periods of seasonality and how they impact your strategy?

So as I mentioned earlier, the majority of our visitors are Europeans. So obviously the industry is heavily affected by the European calendar. So obviously during summer months we’re busier as well as Christmas. But in recent years, we’ve seen slightly more spread out seasonality. So it doesn’t drop as much as it used to be, where you can literally tell the main island is empty. There are no tourists. You can go to the restaurant and nobody’s there, you know. But now the fact that we’ve diversified the market, you know, and targeting, as I mentioned, Asian market, the Gulf as well. So we have direct flights, obviously, from the Gulf region. That’s the most well-connected region to Zanzibar. So you do get a lot of expats as well that live in that region who come to Zanzibar. So you do get a lot of expats as well that live in that region who come to Zanzibar, you know, whether it’s kite surfing, whether it’s just a long weekend to detox. But that has helped sort of reduce the seasonality. But obviously, the challenge is still there when it’s, you know, when it’s super busy. So during Christmas is our peak season and you can just tell, you know, certain areas, you know, you can really feel the over tourism. And that is something that we’re still working on how we can sort of manage the crowd, if you like, because on one end, yes, you want the tourist body. On the other hand, when you have too many in one area, obviously there are going to be negative effects. And we do see them. And at times you find certain communities get frustrated, there’s resentment, and how do you sort of inform the visitors prior arrival that, you know, these are the do’s and don’ts. And yes, we want the dollar, but at the same time, you’re also in somebody’s life. It’s not a walking museum. These are people’s lives that you’re coming into. So the respect has to go both ways. So I can’t say we have a solution to that 100%, but that’s something that we’re currently working on as well. Our numbers are not that high. We get around 700,000 a year, but considering the size of the destination, what we’ve agreed at least is that it’s not so much a numbers game. It’s the quality of the visitors. Who’s coming? How long are they there? How much are they spending? You know, what are their interests? How do we cater for those interests based on, you know, our priority areas? So that’s sort of the shift that we’ve used. But I’m happy to say that the seasonality is not as it’s been, let’s say, in the last 10 years. It’s definitely improved, but there’s still a long way to go.

Let me throw that over to you, Enver. How many visitors do you get each year? And how does seasonality impact the way that you approach strategy?

So we get about 2 million international tourists through the air. We get about another 200,000 through cruise. And then from a domestic perspective with self-drives as well, we probably get about another 150,000 that are kind of self-driving because they come through other points in South Africa and then they come through to Cape Town. So you’re probably looking at about 2.5 million international tourists to Cape Town. So you’re probably looking at about two and a half million international tourists to our city. And then there’s about 4 million kind of regional travelers to the destination over a year. We also used to have the issue of seasonality, but I think that was also kind of almost self-inflicted because we always used to talk about winter in our campaigns. And the thing is, is that just that language alone and get somebody to go, okay, so if their winter is like my winter, why would I want to go there? And sometimes it’s just as simple as that. Also, we actually did an analysis on the changing of weather patterns over a 20-year period and also looking at temperature variations because sometimes things get ingrained because it becomes commonplace and these myths almost become reality when you keep kind of perpetuating the same thing over and over again. And similar to what Hafta has done is we understood that we can’t be dependent on a European market only and we need to diversify. And what we realized is that we’ve got almost a million, almost 25% of our population is Muslim in Cape Town. We’ve got over 350 years of a strong Muslim culture. And we realized that we needed to reposition ourselves not as just, you know, African or European Africa, but it’s about how we actually can connect with the true history and authenticity of the fabric of our city, which is Muslim heritage and culture. And that’s where we went and we worked with the guys of Crescent Rating to start making sure we create awareness around what we have as an offering, but also educating and working with the industry to understand that it’s not just about champagne breakfast or bacon and eggs. It’s about how we transform that in a way through education and awareness. And we’ve seen that significant growth from Southeast Asia to Cape Town, the Middle East. I mean, 37% even of North Africa is Muslim. So the thing is, is that 23% of the world’s population is Muslim. So even in our core key source markets, we were able to therefore reposition because we already got the direct flights. There is an awareness of Cape Town, but at some stage we were alienating Muslims because they didn’t know that we had the strong heritage and culture. So we didn’t have to go and always go into the Middle East and say, oh, we need everybody in the Middle East. Everybody goes to the Middle East where they think Muslim. I don’t know why. So everybody’s kind of in that space fighting for 3% of the world’s population. It doesn’t make sense. Whereas if you look at it in all my key source markets, if one out of every four people in the world is Muslim that means in all my key source markets UK, Germany, US, France, Netherlands now I can speak to them in something in a way that can resonate with them both spiritually religiously but also as a traveler wanting to immerse themselves in something different but also destination that understands the nuances of what would be respectful for their religion. And I think that’s kind of how we’ve dealt with seasonality through clever programming, understanding a market, diversification, and of course, not talking about winter, like in Game of Thrones, winter is coming.

I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. It’s been fascinating hearing these insights from you both. We’ve got a few minutes left, so I’ll ask you both to be fairly brief with your answer to the final question. We’re midway through 2024. How do you see this concept of cultural stewardship evolving, not just this year, but perhaps a little bit longer term for your destination and more broadly for travelers worldwide?

For us, it is a national agenda right now. So this includes a rehabilitation, a restoration, first of all, of our heritage sites. So there’s heavy investments in that, but at the same time, creating more community-based activities. So involving the community in tourism, I think that’s something that we unfortunately did not do sort of on the get-go. So the cultural stewardship is obviously important because everybody is an ambassador, you know, and they need to feel that sense of ownership. So this is where the new strategy comes in on how we can sort of involve more of the community and not let sort of that responsibility fall on the regulatory authority or just a few of the tourism stakeholders. You know, the local communities are equally responsible in ensuring that they’re preserving their culture and heritage as well. So we can come in with tools and skills and any other assistance they may need to do so while equally benefiting for their existence, but at the same time ensuring that they’re not feeling that they’re walking museums.

Thanks, Hafsa. That’s a terrific wrap-up from the Zanzibar. Let me throw that over to Cape Town. Enver, how do you see this cultural stewardship concept evolving for your destination and for your visitors?

So looking ahead for us as Cape Town, I think cultural stewardship has to evolve from nice-to-have to a must-to-have in travel planning. And that means that for us as Cape Town tourism, we’ll definitely continue to focus on sustainable practices and of course, digital storytelling that respects and elevates the local narratives and preserving the culture and heritage is not an option. It is an obligation, not an option. Would you agree with that, Hafsa?

A hundred percent. It’s certainly an obligation for future generations.

Absolutely. And I think that’s why we’ve changed our vision, which used to refer to doubling the economic impact of tourism into our purpose, which is about improving the lives of all our citizens through tourism. And like Hafsa, I agree. Tourism is a pebble in a pond, and all we need to do is just to have the one drop and then let it ripple.