Hello, I’m Gary Bowerman, and welcome to episode three of the High-Yield Tourism podcast. On today’s show, Jens Thraenhart and I will be reflecting on the key themes from this season’s travel conferences, shows and events that we’ve been attending around Asia and beyond. Jens in particular has been traveling non-stop around Asia Pacific and the Middle East. So let’s get started. This is High-Yield Tourism.

Hello, and thanks for listening in, and many thanks, too, for all the feedback we’ve received for our first two High-Yield Tourism podcasts. Both Jens and I have been on the road over the past couple of months and there’s plenty to talk about, about the travel industry events we’ve been attending, the speeches and presentations we’ve given and the panels and webinars we’ve participated in. So Jens, it’s been a busy summer already. Where are you right now and how are you doing?

Hi Gary, good to see you again. And yes, I’m back in Bangkok. It’s been a little bit of a whirlwind. I was in Dubai for the Arabian Travel Market, ATM. Already seems like it’s a long time ago. Then, I had an opportunity to quickly go to Saudi Arabia and check out Neom and the developments there. After that, I was in Macau for the PATA Annual Summit. And then from there, I went to go to the Guangzhou International Travel Fair, where we presented actually the high-yield tourism to the delegates there. I was then back in Bangkok. And then following that, I went to ITB China in Shanghai, which was very fascinating. And the developments in Shanghai were very fascinating in its own, with all the electric cars and electric scooters. It was a city less noisy and almost seemed serene. And after I went to Kathmandu. I was invited again to present our High-Yield Tourism concept, hosted by the PATA Nepal chapter, at the Nepal Tourism 2.0 Forum.

Yeah, busy time for you, Jens. You’ve been on the road. And while you’ve been in the Middle East and Asia Pacific, I’ve actually been to Europe, pretty unusual for me. I was in Barcelona. I gave a presentation at the 2024 Worldline Rise Travel Event, which is a travel payments and solutions event in Barcelona. Really, really interesting time. We can talk about that a little bit more. I spent some time in Madrid and also London and the UK as well. I appeared on the OAG Aviation May Webinar looking at Northeast Asian markets, growth and recovery, looking at how China, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong, how those markets are recovering at different speeds since the pandemic. And also then I came back to Malaysia where I am in Kuala Lumpur right now, and I did a radio interview this week looking at tourism marketing in Southeast Asia and the challenges for each destination, particularly those that are trying to catch up with Thailand, which at the moment is scorching the trends really in this region. So let’s take a step back. Let’s go back to the Arabian travel market, which is a pretty important show. It’s established itself since 1994, but certainly in the years up to the pandemic and since the pandemic, it’s become bigger. I think this year was the biggest show that it’s ever had. It’s become a more important part of the calendar. It really kind of shows, doesn’t it, how the Middle Eastern market is now central and pivotal to the way global tourism is actually operating.

Yeah, no, I mean, you’re absolutely right, Gary. It was fascinating to be at the Arabian travel market. And it was the biggest one yet, and especially coming out of COVID. It was so busy, you couldn’t even walk the halls. And us all having been to many travel conferences, I mean, that doesn’t happen everywhere. Saudi, obviously, was the big story there. A huge pavilion with a tremendous display, not just the Saudi Tourism Authority and the Ministry of Tourism there, but also the various Giga projects from Red Sea Global, Neom, Alula, and so on. So, I mean, one of the halls, I mean, was almost like overtaken by Saudi Arabia. So that’s obviously was a big story there, the whole development of Saudi Arabia.

Then obviously you had other big destinations in the Middle East, from Dubai, obviously the host nation there, and also Abu Dhabi that had big displays, Qatar, Oman, all these destinations that are really looking now to diversify their economies and drive tourism for the right reasons. And they all obviously have tremendous offerings. And with that, also strong air capacity with their airlines, you know, if it is Qatar Airways, with their you if it is Qatar airlines, Saudi know, and other ones. Airways, Etihad, Emirates, Arabia, I mean, so I think obviously that region not only has been an aviation hub for the last decade, but now also I think it’s becoming a tremendous opportunity for inbound tourism. is becoming a tremendous opportunity for inbound tourism. And as these destinations really developing their tourism products and experiences and infrastructure, obviously there’s still a lot of work to be done. But I think, you know, if everything goes well, and not just in Saudi Arabia, but also in other destinations like Oman or other emirates, smaller ones, Sharjah and so on, that also had street displays there. I think we can see the Middle Eastern region in itself to be a truly competing region to other tourism destinations all over the world.

Yeah, it was interesting. I was following it vicariously. I was hoping to go this year, but it clashed with something else that I was doing. But we spoke a few times while you were there, and you sent me quite a few messages of some of the images that you were seeing there. But I mean, it did seem that pretty much everybody in the world from travel and tourism was actually there this year. And I looked at the statistics, and there were 46,000 travel industry professionals attended the Arabian Travel Market this year from 160 different countries. And that was up 15% from 2023. Now, not many travel shows, Jens, around the world will be reporting 15% growth, particularly when they’re that big already.

No, you could definitely feel the buzz in the halls. People that probably normally wouldn’t go to or wouldn’t have gone to Arabian Travel Market in the past, now are there. And also not just, I talked about the destinations, but all the hotel brands were there. I mean, if you went to the hotel hall, I mean, you saw all of them there. I mean, and I’m not talking mid-scale brands, I’m talking super luxury brands. Everyone was represented with a fairly big display. And also what was worthwhile mentioning is, it’s not just that they were represented as at many other travel shows, but they were represented at the highest level. So you had the CEOs of these companies actually there. And that just signifies that all these organizations, if it’s destinations, airlines or hotel companies, were there to do business and sign deals.

Yeah, I’ve marked it in my calendar for 2025. I’ll definitely be going next year. I wish I’d gone this year. So after that, you then did a little bit of a tour in greater China. You were in Macau and you were in Guangzhou. Let’s start with Macau. You had a flying visit there to the PATA Annual Summit. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I think the PATA Annual Summit had a good showing. I mean, Macau, obviously a big supporter of PATA. So it was well represented. I was only there for one day, very quickly. And the first day, there was also a workshop on China, which was facilitated and organized by Dragon Trail. And that was actually very well represented. There was standing room only, and just showed the interest in the Chinese market again. Now, this had a more focus on actually inbound China. So you had destinations like Beijing or Hainan or Sanya represented there to really pitch their destinations outside to operators. But again, obviously, the interest of outbound China, inbound China is there. And I think the Chinese government now, as you know very well, Gary, has realized how important inbound China is for them as well. And there’s a lot of drive to make that happen as well. Still a lot of work to be done. But as we will be discussing on other podcasts, I think there is a lot of work to be done. But as we will be discussing on other podcasts, I think there is a lot of opportunity also for China to look at this high-yield tourism segment, especially from markets like Singapore, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, and so on.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that pivot towards inbound tourism has been pretty surprising and has happened at a real pace since last November when the Chinese government pretty much surprised everybody by announcing that it would offer visa-free access to six countries, five from Europe plus Malaysia, from Southeast Asia. And then it’s continued that over the last six months. And as you say, destinations in China are now having to put together much more considered, much more longer term and much more strategic tourism planning strategies to try and attract, as you say, tourists from not just across Asia, which you’d expect would be their primary targets, but also worldwide. And as you say, Jens, that high-yield target, who is actually going to be traveling to China in the next few months, something that we’ll definitely be watching and something we’ll definitely be talking about over the coming months on the podcast. So from there, Jens, I’m interested, you then went to the Guangzhou International Travel Fair in Guangzhou, very close to Macau. I’m guessing you went across the border and you took the train. Is that correct?

Yeah, I took the train. And that worked very well, very smoothly. I think what’s important to mention is, and I was also part of facilitating a China workshop in Nepal with Professor Wolfgang Alt just a couple of weeks ago. But what’s important, what I really learned in China was that now more than ever, it’s important for destinations that are looking to attract Chinese tourists to understand how Chinese are traveling in their own country. So the first thing that was very important, and someone actually, the head of Asia for WTDC. She mentioned to me that, hey, listen, before you go, make sure that you connect your international credit card to Alipay. And I’m so lucky that I did that. And now it’s possible to do that before. As you know, it was never possible. You couldn’t do that. But I was able to do it. It’s a bit of a process because you have to really give a lot of information. But my time in China, not just in Guangzhou, but also in Shanghai, when from meals to souvenirs, anything, anything you buy, you just do on your mobile phone, you know. And while that is nothing new for China, as we’ve all been there, but I mean, it is pretty astounding just coming from, you know, back from Nepal or being back in Thailand or, you know, having been to Europe recently. I mean, it’s just so far in between now. And, you know, Chinese people, they just expect that, you know, because you get used to that kind of convenience so quickly. It’s amazing. I came back to the real world and I was like, damn, I mean, life is so much more difficult. And I think destinations and hotels and other travel providers that want to attract Chinese consumers, they need to make sure that they close that gap as much as they can, that they build the infrastructure. And payment is probably one of the biggest components with that. And I mean, Gary, you were just at the payment conference in Spain and Barcelona, and you talked to UnionPay. I mean, I’m sure you had similar learnings.

Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ll talk a little more about the conference in a minute. But yeah, I was actually on a breakout session with the European head of China Union Pay. And we actually had to do a presentation on stage. It was a kind of gamified thing where you had different tables, 12 different tables, had to create different products related to travel, tourism, and payments. And we decided to build vicariously Europe’s first super app. And obviously working with China Union Pay on that on a breakout session was very, very, you know, I learned a great deal from him because he was showing me how China UnionPay works in Europe right now. And it’s extremely advanced. So we put that together and we actually won the pitch, which was great. We actually won the title. But I gave a presentation at the event, which is the Worldline Rise Travel in Barcelona, a beautiful location right on the hill of Montjuic, overlooking Barcelona, overlooking the harbor and the hill of Montjuïc, overlooking Barcelona, overlooking the harbor and the city. And mostly my theme was going back to what you were saying. I was talking about Asian travel trends within Asia, how Asians travel within their own countries and across Asia Pacific. So I looked at some of the hot trends in terms of self-drive travel, which is very, very important for the Chinese market, particularly the demand and the supply of EVs or NEVs, as they’re called in China, new energy vehicles. I looked at high-speed rail tourism, which is growing very, very fast. And high-speed railway now is not just a method for getting from A to B. It’s actually driving travel trends. So I looked at that. I also looked at gastro tourism in terms of Thailand and China, issues such as live music. And also the big topic really, I think, in the region at the moment is TV and movie productions. A lot of countries in the region are giving tax breaks and real incentives. Thailand is among those to foreign movie producers and TV series producers to try and get these shows that use the backdrops of these countries and that they’re used to promote tourism. One of those, obviously, is the forthcoming third series of The White Lotus, which is going to be filmed or has been filmed in Thailand. And that’s a joint venture with the Tourism Authority of Thailand. So you can see, you know, governments are actually using TV now to promote tourism. But one of the interesting things for me, Jens, was while I was actually in Barcelona, and I spent some time in Madrid as well, is that tourism this summer is going to be a very, very high volume tourism season in Europe, probably the biggest ever. And I was there in the middle of May, which is the start of the summer season, but not necessarily the peak. And both Madrid and Barcelona were extremely busy. But the interesting thing, Jens, in terms of high-yield tourism is that most of the travelers that you meet on the streets are independent travelers. They’re coming on their own. So you would probably consider them as yield tourists, but it’s just the volume, the high volumes. And some of the streets in Madrid, you know, Jens, you’ve been to Madrid, it’s quite compact in parts of the city. We’re really crowded and you literally couldn’t get past. And I was changing some money at a money changer. And the guy said to me, they do speak Spanish. And so he started speaking to me saying, oh, you have to be very careful because it’s so packed. There are so many pickpockets here at the moment. He said, we’ve got even more than Barcelona. Barcelona is quite famous for pickpockets. He said, we’ve even got more than Barcelona now. He said, everybody has to be so much more careful because we’re all so much closer together when we’re walking around the city. And I thought, no, that was fascinating because this is middle of May. It’s not high season yet. That’s July and August.

So I think this summer is going to be great in terms of revenues for some of these destinations, but it is going to throw up a lot more challenges. you know, let’s say the trends of your consumers that you’re targeting in this, let’s say Asian travelers or in particular Chinese travelers that are so different. I mean, really making sure that not only these trends are understood and the behaviors are understood, but then also that infrastructure is put in place. So, you know, payment is an important one. The other thing that really was so noticeable in Shanghai was how quiet the city was. The electric cars, the electric scooters and so on, I mean, you could almost hear a pin drop. And I’m not lying. I mean, it was almost like a serene environment and on the negative side you have to be careful not to be hit by by a car or scooter because you don’t need but it was you know it created a whole different vibe or atmosphere in the city it almost seemed like it’s a it’s a park while you are in the middle of Shanghai.

And in that environment, then when you’re back in Bangkok or Madrid, where it’s loud and noisy and busy and so on, you know, not that one is better than the other, but it’s a whole different mindset in terms of that. So I think understanding what’s happening in cities like Shanghai and making sure that we understand the behaviors that are coming out of these travelers now and the expectations that result from that is critical. And I think not understanding these behaviors will result in failure. And you don’t have to, obviously. I mean, when you travel, you don’t have to replicate the source destination for sure. But I think some of the things are just important to be understood. The other thing I think we should mention as a market, we talked about China is also India. And that also became very clear from, you know, visiting Arabian travel market and Dubai as a whole. I mean, when you go to Dubai, you feel like you’re in India almost. I think the Indian market now is becoming kind of like the new China when it comes to outbound tourism.

And obviously, it’s a very active travel market. There’s a high population of wealthy people or middle-class people. India is quite connected. Obviously, you have a very interesting domestic travel system in India with rail and bus and all of that. But I think Indian people are on the verge. But again, with this kind of big markets like China, like India, I think I feel the real, holy grail is to find these high-yield tourists that really deliver the value for a destination to reduce leakage and increase profits.

Yeah, I would agree, Jens. And I think something, this is anecdotally, this is just from my own, what I observed in three cities, Jens, was I traveled to three cities as a tourist, really, Madrid, Barcelona, and Oxford in the UK. All of them, quite a lot of Asian travelers, more Indian travelers in all three cities than I’ve ever seen in any of those cities before. Quite a lot of Chinese travelers as well, a lot of other Asian destinations. But this is an interesting point that I noticed. I didn’t see one Indian tour group, and I didn’t see one Chinese tour group. All of those travelers were traveling independently or as extended families. You do see a lot of tour groups, however, particularly in Barcelona and Madrid, and all of those tour groups, Jens, are either European or North American, which I thought was particularly interesting.

Well, that’s an interesting observation because you do see the Chinese tour groups in Macau, in Thailand, for example. So that would conclude me to say, well, tour groups are maybe more lower distance, a short haul, but that independent travelers are the ones that are a little bit more adventurous, that verge out to explore the world.

It has been said that Chinese travelers well, are afraid to really go far alone and need to go with a tour group. But there might be a shift now that we see more independent travelers that really go out there and travel alone. And the same goes for Indian travelers. And I think that’s an opportunity for international destinations to target high-yield travelers from these two key source markets. But as we discussed in our first two podcasts, it’s a lot harder and more complex to obviously target these high-yield travelers than just targeting two groups.

Yeah, I would agree. And as a caveat, I would have to say that the middle of May when I was there, not the peak tourism periods from either country, it wasn’t school holidays yet, and it wasn’t any of the public holidays from China. So the tourism volumes were probably a little bit lower than they would be at peak season. But even so, I thought it was a pretty interesting observation. Jens, you were then in Nepal. You spent some time there in Kathmandu. You spoke at a conference. You also did a few other things. Tell us a little bit about your experiences there. I have to admit, I’ve never been to Nepal. It’s always been very high on my list of places to go, but I’ve not made it yet.

Well, I love Nepal. And I think Nepal is one of these underrated destinations. It’s actually, I mean, if I were to kind of point out the top five underrated travel destinations in Asia, Nepal would be in the top five, probably with Nepal, Sri Lanka, Mongolia, Cambodia, and Laos. Those probably would be my top five destinations that are underrated, but so rich and such a great value and a life-changing experience. Kathmandu is a fabulous destination. It’s a great city with so much history. And I went with my friend Raj, who runs a travel company, SocialTours there. I learned so much around Buddhism and the fabric of the community in Kathmandu, which was just fascinating. I also went to Lumpini, the birthplace of Buddha. And that was, you know, really interesting. I mean, on one hand, obviously, it was a very life-changing experience to go to the site where Lord Buddha was born, to even meditate under the Bodhi tree. And even though it was very hot, it felt like a rural Indian destination or a city because it’s very close to the Indian border in the south. But I think just kind of going to the site, I mean, it’s something very special. Going to the I site, it’s mean, something very special.

Having said it’s also a very sad destination that, though, because from an international tourism it’s really underdeveloped. destination, There’s a lot of plastic pollution.

There is really almost no tourism infrastructure there. And it’s really more a city when it comes when it’s focused to, on pilgrimage tourism. But again, it’s still something worthwhile to visit if you’re interested, you know, obviously in Buddhism or interested in culture or religion.

So yes, I mean, it was fascinating to go there and just to experience it for a couple of days.

And so talking about the event that you were there for, Jens, what were some of the themes that were being talked about in terms of tourism, travel and the future?

Yes, it was the Nepal Tourism 2.0 Forum, which was organized by the PATA Nepal chapter. I was presenting on high-yield tourism, really the potential for high-yield tourism for Nepal. I was also talking about artificial intelligence and digital marketing for tourism, how Nepal can leverage that, especially small businesses and building infrastructure around that. But what was interesting, the last day we had an expert roundtable where the Pata Nepal chapter invited top people, Deepak, the former CEO of Nepal Tourism Board, CEOs of hotel companies and tourism boards and tour operators, airlines from Nepal, and really discussed the future of Nepal. And obviously, you know, Nepal is getting a million tourists right now. Nepal is getting a million tourists right now. Obviously, A lot of them are Indians. There are issues, obviously, with leakage as well, because a lot of people that come internationally, they book through Indian travel companies, and so the money goes out. And so there’s a lot of issues, you know, really to leveraging tourism as a force for good, to really kind of provide income for the residents. Yet, obviously, there is so much to explore in Nepal. I mean, I talked about spiritual tourism, but I mean, if it comes to wellness, if it comes to outdoor, you know, hiking, trekking in the mountains. And so there’s so much that can be done in Nepal. I think it’s one of the destinations that has so much that can be done in Nepal. I think it’s one of the destinations that has so much potential. But, you know, there are issues in terms of infrastructure that need to be solved. Also, you know, there was no clarity when it came to the positioning of Nepal. What do we stand for? What do people think of Nepal? And it’s true. I mean, many people that haven’t been there, they know, oh, Mount Everest, that’s all I can think of. But then there’s nothing else. I mean, really telling the story of Nepal and creating an emotional connection and building campaigns that really resonate with people. But I think for anybody, I mean, it’s one of these destinations, which is, it’s a no-brainer destination. It’s a great value. There’s a lot of development that’s going on. My friends from Shintamani, Bill Bensley Collection, they just developed with a Nepalese partner, mountain lodges in Mustang in Nepal, in the mountain regions, which are on the cover of travel and leisure this month. So again, I mean, there is development happening of some really outstanding properties and experiences. But I think there needs to be a cohesive and collaborative approach in really bringing that to the market.

Interesting insights there, Jens. And I would say, before we wrap up, one of the things that I think has been interesting this summer in Asia Pacific that I’ve noticed, you’ve probably noticed this at the events that you’ve been attending. I’ve noticed this in the media interviews I’ve given, the presentations, the conferences I’ve been to, the webinars that I’ve been watching. Where we are now, Jens, two years really after Asia Pacific reopened after the pandemic, one year and a half for China, is that there is a great deal of positivity in the industry in terms of travel flows, product innovation, product development, and the fact that Asia Pacific is traveling again, the fact the world is connected again. But there is also, I think this year, a greater focus on strategy planning, market diversification, and really thinking ahead that although we’ve probably come through what has been probably a bit of a honeymoon period in terms of that reopening of demand and supply after the pandemic, that going forward, it’s going to be more challenging. There are going to be a lot of challenges, going to be a lot of competition. Consumers are in control. You know, travelers are in control now. The narratives around travel, you know, are determined by travelers themselves. But you’ve also got that overlay of climate change, sustainability, which really, really is becoming much more of a, not much of a bigger issue in travel, but in everyday lives. So it does seem to me that travel and tourism is becoming a little bit more strategized and reflective about where it goes in future. Is that something that you would concur with in terms of what you’ve been seeing and hearing?

Absolutely. I mean, I think destinations are still focusing on numbers, driving numbers. That’s still the main KPI. And, you know, in many cases, you can’t blame them. You know, it’s a combination of political pressure and, you know, kind of driving visibility and making sure that people get back to work and drive the economy. And, you know, the quick answer sometimes is like, well, you know, let’s just drive numbers, you know. I mean, when we look at Thailand, Thailand is doing a great job when it comes to numbers, but people are not spending as they did before. So that’s a big issue for Thailand. So what’s the result? We’ll drive more numbers. So then maybe if we have more people coming, then maybe we hit the revenue goals that there is. I don’t think that’s the solution, but, you, but it is an answer to the problem, obviously. That’s why this whole concept that we’re trying to push of high-yield tourism is so important more than ever, because I believe that’s the solution to these issues, similar to what countries like Thailand are facing, targeting the right people that are spending money, reducing the leakage, you know, the issue that we’re seeing in Nepal, that making sure that the money actually stays in the destination and contributes to the economy. And number three, that the footprint is not as large because, you know, just higher numbers is a cost to tourism, right? If we listen to Megan Epler Wood and Cornell University of the invisible burden, I think that is more relevant than ever, you know, because tourism has a cost to it. So, I mean, more people, you know, kind of create more damage. So I think this whole concept of high-yield tourism is, yes, get the right people in there, making sure that they spend money, stay longer, but also that the footprint is less so that the destination can be protected for generations to come. Both you and I will go to Cebu in a couple of weeks to go to the UN Tourism, you know, as it formerly was called, UNWTO Commission for East Asia, Pacific and South Asia. And also they combined it this year with the first regional forum on gastronomy for Asia and the Pacific. And so we are invited to join that. Also the ministerial meetings as vice chair of the UNWTO, UN Tourism Affiliate Member. And I think it will be interesting to learn there what the ministers have to say about this same issue. And I think we’ll get some great learnings out of that.

Yeah, 100% agree with that. Looking forward to going to Cebu, Jens. I think that’s going to be a very interesting, as you say, a lot of issues that are really, really relevant at a very, very relevant time for the industry and the region as well. So Jens, thanks so much for joining me today on the third edition of our High Yield Tourism podcast. As always, you can join the conversation on our LinkedIn page at High-Yield Tourism. That’s with a hyphen in the middle. And we’ll be back next week to talk more high-yield tourism. See you then.