Hello, and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism podcast. On today’s show, Dr. Jens Thraenhart and I will be discussing the shifting global influence of Muslim tourism with Fazal Bahardeen, a global expert on halal travel. So let’s get started.

Hello, and thanks for listening in today. It’s a pleasure to welcome to the show Fazal Bahardeen, founder and CEO of CrescentRating, a consulting and marketing intelligence firm specializing in halal-friendly travel. Fazal is also the publisher of the annual MasterCard CrescentRating Global Muslim Travel Index, which will celebrate its 10th edition in 2025. He’s also an in-demand consultant and speaker on the development of Muslim travel and tourism worldwide. So, Fazal, thanks for coming on the show. How are you doing? And where are you right now?

Thanks, Gary. Thanks, Dr. Jens. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I am currently in Jakarta here. Thanks for having me today. A pleasure to be on the show.

You’ve had a pretty crazy travel schedule recently. I guess that reflects the interest in Muslim travel worldwide.

Absolutely. I think, you know, already post-pandemic, we saw that there was a lot more interest in this segment. I think post-pandemic, a lot of destinations probably realize that they need to diversify their visitor arrivals. I think that’s one of the key reasons I believe they’re looking at different markets, you know, not just the traditional, you know, big markets pre-pandemic that we were all, you know, targeting. But I think post-pandemic, they realized, at least in some markets that we work with, you know, that they need to really diversify their visitor arrival. So that’s that. That means, you know, we are busy. We are busy, and we have, you know, I personally have been traveling quite a lot. So it’s good. And I think a lot of interest in this segment now.

That’s interesting. Let’s talk a little bit briefly about CrescentRates and your company, which you founded in 2008. Can you just tell us a little bit about what you do? And also, you know, how have perceptions about Muslim travel, lifestyle and tourism changed over the 17 years that you’ve been running the company?

I mean, we officially started in 2008, December 2008. But, you know, this idea has been in my mind since 2006. And that was mainly driven by my, you know, my challenges while traveling as a Muslim traveler. I was in the corporate world for 19 years and used to travel much more than I do now. And, you know, I was, you know, struggling at that time, you know, early 2000s, you know, it was not easy as a Muslim traveler. The awareness was very low in terms of, you know, the requirements of Muslim travelers and all that. You know, that was the sort of, you know, inspiration behind the idea of wanting to rate hotels and how Muslim friendly they are. So that’s how I got started. That’s why the name CrescentRating instead of Star Rating. So that’s how the name. So I actually… registered the name in February of 2007 and then sort of took my time off. I just left my corporate job in 2007 and took some time off until I officially launched it in 2008. So I think at that time, it was a difficult challenge to convince the industry that you needed to take care of the Muslim market. You know, there are unique requirements, and all that. And then this also was the reason that we started, you know, developing some research because in order to convince the market, you need to have numbers. So sometime, you know, that’s where we went and I, you know, did some work on, you know, what’s the numbers, you know, what’s the size of the Muslim market, what’s the population. And, you know, started, you know, coming up with, you know, market numbers, which now we are, after 16 years, we are now probably more known for our market research and all that. than rating products. So, actually, the research was really a byproduct of me wanting to convince the market that they should do a rating. But now, as I say, it’s the reverse. We are a big leading research company now. So I think, coming back to your question, Gary, it has changed dramatically. I think when we started, it was a different world out there. And today, you know, pretty big destinations are focused on this market. As you know, we did some work for many destinations, including, you know, I think one of the interesting ones was New York City launching the Muslim Visitor Guide that we worked for. Even in cities like Malaga, we released the Muslim Visitor Guide. Currently, we are, of course, doing a significant project with Hong Kong tourism. So there is… huge change in destinations looking at this market. They really, I think, believe now that this is a strategic market that they need to put a lot of thoughts on.

So the numbers keep growing. It is a very, very influential market. But as well as having big numbers, it’s actually diversifying quite a great deal, isn’t it? And that’s why a lot of destinations around the world are really trying to keep track with trends in Muslim lifestyle and travel and tourism.

Absolutely. When I did the numbers first, I think this was probably 2010, you know, we were looking at that time, you know, that, you know, it was 100 million international arrivals. And then, you know, we, of course, kept track of it. And it reached about 160 million by 2019. And then, of course, the pandemic struck. And then just our estimates for 2024 since you asked for the numbers. Our estimate, of course, we still need some more time to validate those numbers. We estimate that there were 180 million visitors in 2024, which even surpassed the 2019 levels by almost 12 to 15%. So I think the numbers are really growing. We currently estimate it to surpass almost 230 million by 2028. That’s, I think, on the overall numbers. Leading a little bit to your question, I think it is a diverse market because compared to like India or China, which is, you know, like 90, 95 % of that market comes from a single geography. The Muslim market, this 160 or 180, you know, 95-98 % of them actually come from 30, you know, key outbound markets. So, the pros and cons to that, you know, of course, are the cost of acquisition because you have to, you know, have a diverse. 30 outbound markets, the cost of acquisition probably is higher, but the risks are lower, you know. So you are catering to a shared sort of behavior and preferences. And then, you know, since it’s not from one geography, you can, you know, your risks are lower.

The numbers are increasing. Globally, travel and tourism is changing. We know that. And you spoke to me just off air, Fazal, and you said that Muslim travel interest in destinations around the world has changed since the pandemic. How has it changed and what is it that destinations are looking to do now? Are they looking to increase the yield from Muslim tourists? Are they looking to introduce new services? How is the world looking at Muslim tourism today?

I think it depends on where you are and which destinations you are. Some destinations in the early stages didn’t have any basic services that Muslims need, like halal food and, you know, prayer facilities. These are like basic services. So some destinations who are really looking at, you know, at the market now, they are focused on developing those kinds of capacity and capabilities. Some destinations who are probably a little bit more advanced, they are probably looking at how do we look at catering to the behavior of Muslim, Gen Zs and millennials. So I think it differs. But generally, most destinations, although they have embraced this as an important market, I think they are, even now, compared to, of course, Muslim-majority destinations like Malaysia or Indonesia or Turkey, most of the non -Muslim -majority countries, still their main focus is to provide those basic kind of services.

Yeah, I mean, I think, Faisal, the Muslim market is definitely fascinating. And I mean, if you’re not Indonesia or Saudi, or as you said, a Muslim market, it is a little bit of a kind of like a black hole. It’s not easy to get your head around to really understand this market. If I was a destination, let’s say a non-Muslim destination, how could I… attract Muslim travelers and have them, you know, spend money in my destination, but still obviously respecting and providing services that they require?

First of all, Muslims are getting a lot more. I mean, the choices for Muslims now are getting better and better. More and more destinations are interested, so they have a better choice. So now you are really looking at Muslims choosing the, I mean, Muslims are choosing the destination, not for, of course, you know, there’s halal food or prayer facilities, I mean, they are still choosing for your tourism products. That’s why tourists go. I keep saying nobody goes to London to say, look, let me go to London and find prayer places to pray. They’re still going to London like anybody else goes to London to enjoy the sights and sounds and all that, I think. But what these nations need to do is, of course, take away their worry about where to eat and where to pray and all that. I think that’s at the basic level. I think in terms of how you get them to spend more money, I think Muslims, compared to other demographics tend to travel with families. Not only their immediate family, parents, and kids, but you also have a lot more multi-generational travel. And I think that’s something that, you know, destinations need to look at. Especially, I think now, as somebody was saying, we used to have big extended families. Then we went to nuclear families. Now, we are almost no family’s age. So I think that… You know, holidays are becoming more of bringing families together as well. We see that happening now. They’re going, the parents who are living somewhere else and they come back, take their parents together, they’re going. So I think multi-generational travel is, we have seen, you know, we, you know, on our Halal Trip platform, we sell travel packages. We see a lot more multi-generational families now traveling. We are also seeing more and more female groups traveling. So I think these are all, I believe, what we could call high-yield because they are, you know, they are going for a specific, you know, with intentions and, you know, they know exactly what they want to do. So we see a lot of females. There are companies now specializing in Muslim female travel as well, only, you know, Muslim female groups. And I think, you know, Gen Zs are also beginning to travel on their own. They’re starting to, you know, getting into the workforce now. Especially in Southeast Asia, you know, they are a little bit more, I would say, independent in their travel plans. You know, they are beginning to travel on their own. Yeah, so I think, you know, those are some of the trends that we see.

Yeah, I was just going to follow up on this point because, I mean, when I worked for Mekong Tourism, we actually did research, and this is a few years ago, on the power of female Muslim travelers. And I think it’s something that, you know, many people don’t even realize that, that this segment in itself is extremely powerful, but also has a lot of opportunities from a high-yield standpoint as well. So not just, I mean, looking at Muslim travelers as one segment, I think it’s multi-segmented, like the Chinese market is multi-segmented. But then in particular, I think the female Muslim segment is extremely interesting.

Yeah, I think it’s interesting from a number of points. So we actually released a report with Mastercard, I think, in 2019, just before the pandemic, called Muslim Women in Travel. That’s what the report is. Probably one of the most comprehensive reports we have done. One is Muslim females traveling in female groups. I think that’s happening now. I think it’s a growth segment. Two, Muslim females are also beginning to go solo as well, which was not heard of before. But, you know, places like, you know, like Japan and Korea are very safe places, and they are beginning to go. But most importantly, even when the families are traveling together, the females are the ones who are making the decisions, you know, especially young females. You know, the Gen Z females are deciding on behalf of the family. It’s not Gen Z males who are making the decision. It’s the Gen Z females who are deciding where the parents and their siblings will go for the holidays, you know. So I think at different levels, the Muslim female market is becoming a lot, lot more interesting, not just for only female travel, but also for family travel.

I could see that, you know, having been in Saudi Arabia for the last few months. So, yeah, very, very fascinating. Go ahead, Gary.

Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on what you were talking about in terms of how different destinations approach the Muslim market, Fazal. Two markets that you’ve been working with recently, Hong Kong and Spain, very contrasting markets, very different compositions and structures of their tourism market, different inbound mixes, different approaches to travel and tourism. How are those two destinations now approaching the Muslim market in 2025?

The first about Hong Kong, I think, do we call it North Asia, right? You know, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea were, I think, hugely dependent on the Chinese arrivals, you know, I mean, quite a bit of, you know, percentage of arrivals was Chinese arrivals. I think they realized at some point in time, you know, they need to diversify. And when you look at diversifying, you know, your closest, you know, countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, which have, you know, large Muslim populations. And of course, when, you know, Hong Kong specifically was targeting also the, the Middle Eastern countries. So they realized that these markets are Muslim markets, so they need to sort of build capacity and capability to target the Muslim market. So Hong Kong, I think, has, you know, I mean, they had a press conference, I think, last month on announcing what we have done. We started with a lot of research work for Hong Kong in terms of, what they have currently and what are the gaps that they have to fill. A lot of training was rolled out for the stakeholders in Hong Kong. Currently, we are in the process of rating their hotels. We have more than 50 hotels now rated by Crescent Ratings. And compared to like six months ago, which we probably had about a couple of hotels providing halal food in Hong Kong, now we have more than 50 hotels. through the efforts of the Hong Kong Tourism Board in terms of looking at this market, who are now able to cater to the Muslim travelers. We are having Hong Kong Exhibition Center now looking at how to cater to the Muslims for MICE events. We have attractions like Ocean Park having a fully-fledged prayer room and halal food. I think it’s a good case study as well. I think within almost six to eight months, it has transformed itself to something really welcoming to Muslims. I think that’s really great to see. And we see that that has impacted some other countries in the region as well.

And you also reference Spain, which has a strong historical Muslim influence in the country’s south.

Spain has so much to offer for Muslim travelers, actually, because of the heritage of Andalusia, right? I think Spanish tourism has realized that, and they have been working a lot on promoting Andalusia for the Muslim travelers. So we worked with Malaga to release the Muslim Visitor Guide for Malaga City. The Andalusian tourism has also released a Muslim guide to Andalusia. A lot of Muslims are, of course, traveling to Andalusia as well. I mean, like Cordoba, Malaga, Granada, these cities., the CEO of chief executive of Spain was on our Halal in Travel Global Summit last year. And he was talking about what they are doing. So I think there is. Not only Spain, Gary, I mean, I’m not able to mention the names yet, but there are a lot more, at least a couple of more Western European countries who will announce things very soon. We are doing some work with some of them. So there is a lot more interest now in Western Europe as well.

So yes, I mean, touching on that. So if I was, let’s say, a Western European country, and I wanted to kind of get into the Muslim market, what would be the first steps that you recommend I should look at? I mean, I think it was fascinating to hear about your case study with Hong Kong, obviously the rating that kind of builds trust in that market. But what would be the first or the top three to five things that you would recommend doing?

I think the first and most important thing is to give the perception. Of course, in the news, it’s not right these days, right? You know, you see the Muslims and, you know, Islam and halal is, you know, probably has a negative perception. So I think first is to break down that perception issue. I think that that’s probably the first thing to do because the reality is actually a lot of Western European, at least the major cities are really, there are a lot of halal food everywhere now. I mean, you go to Berlin, you go to many other cities. There are plenty of food and prayer places and all that. But the issue is the perception and the media narrative is problematic, right? I think the first is to break down that narrative. And I think the best way to do that, like even New York City did, I suggest them to do a Muslim visitor guide because that gives the message that, look, we have services and we welcome you. Irrespective of what goes on in the news channels or whatever, you know. I think that’s the key, I would say, to break down that narrative saying, look, that’s not true, that probably happens, but that’s not real. The reality is, we have plenty of places for you to come and enjoy and things like that. I think that’s the first thing to do. The second thing, of course, is to continue to build that capability and capacity, apart from the major cities like, like Berlin probably or London, second, third-tier cities probably don’t have that kind of infrastructure. So I think we should work on that. I think the biggest thing that Western European countries need to do is to send that positive message to the Muslim travelers.

Feel welcome. I think that’s obviously critical. I want to kind of shift gears a little bit and Saudi Arabia. obviously a major Muslim travel destination because of the religious sites. But now, obviously, Saudi is looking to increase leisure tourism. It’s a new tourism destination. But many of the Muslim travelers that come to Saudi Arabia go there for religious purposes, Hajj, Umrah, and so on. But now, obviously, there is this drive around Umrah Plus, having people combine the religious purpose with a leisure purpose as well, which before, you know, as you mentioned previously, was, yeah, they would go to Dubai, they would go to London, but they wouldn’t kind of do that leisure purpose in Saudi. So now there is this drive to have people that come to Saudi for religious purposes engage in leisure travel as well and kind of buy both the Umrah packages. Now there’s obviously misconceptions around that. Some people kind of want to maximize the time in Saudi to pray. But what would you recommend, let’s say, to a destination like Saudi Arabia that is a very strong Muslim religious destination?

Yeah, I think it would be very difficult for Umrah Plus in Saudi to say, look, do your Umrah and go spend your time on the beach or in the shopping malls in the Red Sea or whatever. I think that will be a very big hurdle to do. However, I think how Umrah Plus could be positioned in Saudi is to still link it to the religious heritage outside of Mecca and Medina, still build stories around, you know, the stories of the Prophet, you know, religious-oriented in other parts of. That’s the emotional connection of Muslims to the land, right? So if you want to take them out of Mecca and Medina, I think you need to still link it somehow to the faith with stories and history and all that. I think if… I may be wrong, you know, maybe it will work, but I can’t see it happening now. You know, you say, look, you do Umrah and Hajj and go do your traditional leisure stuff in Saudi itself. That is a hard sell, I believe, currently.

2025, it looks like your travel schedule is going to be pretty busy. Will you be running your conference again this year?

Absolutely, absolutely. I just posted on LinkedIn today all that we are going to, our events that we are launching. You know, of course, the… Aladdin Travel Global Summit, which is on the 27th, 28th, 29th of May. We’ll also, I think importantly, we’ll release our 10th edition of the Global Muslim Travel Index, GMTI, with Mastercard. I think it’s really a milestone for us, you know, 10 years, 10th anniversary, not the 10th anniversary of, you know, we had 11 years of partnership with Mastercard, but since we did not release in 2020, this will be the 10th edition of GMTI. So it’s really a unique achievement for us. We also, I think more importantly, we also, announcing our Halal Trip Gastronomy Awards. We are expanding this year to new cities, probably about two more cities, including apart from Singapore. So yeah, we have quite a bit of things planned for this year.

Fazal, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks very much for joining us on the High-Yield Tourism Podcast.

Thanks, Gary. Thanks, Jens. Thank you.